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Post by Landvogt Werner von Schwyz on Jun 5, 2023 21:19:44 GMT
With respect to gathering support to fight the Mongol threat, there isn't a seconded motion (at present) to conscript the various Lords to fight. It is all strictly voluntary for the Lords to do their Christian duty and defend all of Christianity. Lords are free to not assist... The following motion from the Lord-Archon has been seconded by the Duchy of Green Castle:
'I motion this Imperial Diet passes a law that every realm must send coin or men for the next expedition against the Mongols and their godless, pagan Khan. And I volunteer to lead it.'
There are perhaps some questions about the motion awaiting clarification, but I believe that the compulsory nature of the word 'must' in the motion does not suggest that contribution would be voluntary. If the lords assembled here say that the wording of this motion, or any other motions on the proposed joint military expedition, all point to a strictly voluntary effort, then at they very least I would propose that the motion to be amended to more clearly state such.
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Post by Admin Bob on Jun 5, 2023 21:52:49 GMT
Lord Doge - you claim you will end the war by the end of the year. But what is to stop Duke Macroix from refusing whatever terms you attempt to impose upon his realm? Thus you are faced with a choice of ending the war on terms other than what you desire or breaking your promise to his Holiness, the Pepe, and this gathered assembly. While I fully understand and support the prerogative of Lords to act within their own self interest and conduct diplomacy (or war) as needed - I am saddened to see self gain take precedence over the good of all Christians. There is a time and place for everything." Lord Gewisse, should Duke Croix decide on dishonourable acts to delay the war beyond the year limit, then an armistice will be formed, as we would swear before all here, to allow both realms to then focus southward. No matter if the majority is just barely above half or if the majority is every single other country in Christendom, no external grouping of countries, no matter how large, has the right to dictate to a sovereign country against its will how it is to conduct its military and financial affairs. For this reason, the veto would be unlimited. Thank you for the clarification Landvogt Schwyz. Personally, we would prefer a means to override the veto with an overwhelming vote. A 67% vote would require 8/11 realms to vote on one matter, which feels fair to pass legislation that one, or a small cohort of realms, may not like. The representative of Duke Macroix rose once again. Again, the Doge promises a cease fire at the end of the year. Why not a ceasefire now? What exactly is the Doge aiming to do to our peaceful nation while the Diet watches on? I can guarantee, right here and now, that my ruler will not accept any peace that the Doge suggests, as the Doges suggestions for peace have been, as previously proven, ludicrous. What the Doge aims to do, in case it was not blindingly obvious, is to invade our sovereign realm and then at the end of the year declare a "ceasefire" while holding what parts it has managed to gain over that year, so that when the Khan is, with God's help, defeated, they can restart this conflict at an advantage. That is not the spirit of peace that we honor by meeting in this holy assembly, and I can assure all who are in attendance that should they let this travesty of a "promise" pass for good word, the Diet will see the day when our League is pillaged and burnt while the Pope and all of Christendom watches on.
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Post by Alfred Von Gewisse on Jun 5, 2023 22:07:37 GMT
Lord Doge - you claim you will end the war by the end of the year. But what is to stop Duke Macroix from refusing whatever terms you attempt to impose upon his realm? Thus you are faced with a choice of ending the war on terms other than what you desire or breaking your promise to his Holiness, the Pepe, and this gathered assembly. While I fully understand and support the prerogative of Lords to act within their own self interest and conduct diplomacy (or war) as needed - I am saddened to see self gain take precedence over the good of all Christians. There is a time and place for everything." Lord Gewisse, should Duke Croix decide on dishonourable acts to delay the war beyond the year limit, then an armistice will be formed, as we would swear before all here, to allow both realms to then focus southward. No matter if the majority is just barely above half or if the majority is every single other country in Christendom, no external grouping of countries, no matter how large, has the right to dictate to a sovereign country against its will how it is to conduct its military and financial affairs. For this reason, the veto would be unlimited. Thank you for the clarification Landvogt Schwyz. Personally, we would prefer a means to override the veto with an overwhelming vote. A 67% vote would require 8/11 realms to vote on one matter, which feels fair to pass legislation that one, or a small cohort of realms, may not like. The same could be said of you today.
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Post by Lord-Archon Trajan Evander on Jun 6, 2023 4:51:14 GMT
The Lord-Archon rose after being addressed by Lord Gewisse. Despite all best attempts, the man could not hide the wounds to his body. A portion as straight as an arrow cut through his beard on the left cheek of his face. Noticeable padding had been added to his shoulder, perhaps to hide a bandage, and he walked with a limp. Though, curiously, his boots were the right size.I will lead any army assembled by this Imperial Diet against the Mongol demons. While you are bicker and stew about borders on a map, I saw men slaughtered by the thousands at the Red Fields. I lost one of my sons to arrows so numerous I could only identify him by the shreds of his cloak! So few of you saw the ruins of Percyandria. ASHES carried on the winds all the way to the mountain passes. Refugees with little but the clothes on their backs and terror in their eyes. We had Legions. LEGIONS! Yet it wasn't enough. If we are to save Christendom and our very homes, we MUST unite as a total force from every possible realm and route these half-men, half-monsters from our lands. NOTHING else matters. NOTHING!I motion this Imperial Diet passes a law that every realm must send coin or men for the next expedition against the Mongols and their godless, pagan Khan. And I volunteer to lead it. A clarification from the Lord Archon. Is this proposal meant to be the law in question to have every realm send coin or men to the upcoming expedition against the Sartaq Khan or was it simply a motion to have the Imperial Diet pass a law which is to be discussed and voted upon separately? My Lord-Speaker, it is a law to be voted on and, by courage and God's Will, passed to engage the barbaric invasion.
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Post by Lord-Archon Trajan Evander on Jun 6, 2023 4:57:24 GMT
With respect to gathering support to fight the Mongol threat, there isn't a seconded motion (at present) to conscript the various Lords to fight. It is all strictly voluntary for the Lords to do their Christian duty and defend all of Christianity. Lords are free to not assist... The following motion from the Lord-Archon has been seconded by the Duchy of Green Castle:
'I motion this Imperial Diet passes a law that every realm must send coin or men for the next expedition against the Mongols and their godless, pagan Khan. And I volunteer to lead it.'
There are perhaps some questions about the motion awaiting clarification, but I believe that the compulsory nature of the word 'must' in the motion does not suggest that contribution would be voluntary. If the lords assembled here say that the wording of this motion, or any other motions on the proposed joint military expedition, all point to a strictly voluntary effort, then at they very least I would propose that the motion to be amended to more clearly state such.
You hide behind papers and lawyer's dodge, von Schwyz. While thousands bled and fought to save a Christian realm under siege, you stayed your hand whilst all your neighbors marched abroad in unison. A unity not seen since the Reman Empire. Even now the realm you represent seeks to profit as warriors march again to drive the Mongol savages from the shores of Christendom. Is there not a single canton or member of the Tagsatzung who would lift a sword and shield in combat against massacring raiders who pray to foreign, pagan gods? Yes, I say, that a measure mandating the support of ALL Christian realms in mutual defense against the Khannic hordes, especially for the likes of you who count pennies under the cloak of safety provided by the legions of others. You are lucky that Savior Jesus Christ commands us to forgive so easily, lest I be disgusted by such a lack of bravery.
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Post by Alfred Von Gewisse on Jun 6, 2023 11:44:30 GMT
Unfortunately Lord Archon, I agree with the sentiments of the Landvogt - this Diet has no power to compel members to do anything and I cannot support any motion that attempts to do so.
This is a voluntary assembly.
However, that doesn’t absolve those who don’t assist in this crisis of sin, nor protect them from the ire of their neighbors who spend blood and treasure while these non-assisting parties take actions of self interest.
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Post by Consul Allectus de Gallia on Jun 6, 2023 14:01:14 GMT
We appreciate the Lord Archon’s clarification on the matter. The scribe will take note of it.
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Post by Consul Allectus de Gallia on Jun 6, 2023 14:41:35 GMT
As the motion on the Diet's powers and authority to resolve conflicts and wars between realms has received two seconds (including our own) and no objections voiced thus far, I would like to, with the permission of the Speaker, make an amendment on the current proposal for the realms to furnish men or coin to combat the Mongol threat. The Tagsatzung does not necessarily object to such a joint effort by the various countries of Christendom being coordinated in the halls of this assembly, nor does it necessarily wish this endeavour to fail. Instead, our ire is drawn specifically at the prospect that the Diet would pass a theoretically-enforceable resolution on this matter through the rule of majority approval alone, one that would yet make participation in this expedition compulsory amongst every single land represented in the Diet, with fixed amounts of soldiers or coin required of each country, even if a minority of countries were to object to the use of its own coin or men in this way. We do not deny the reality of the Mongol threat, but at the same time we are willing to lend neither legitimacy nor precedent to the Diet legislating on matters of a country's spending of its own coin, or the raising and deployment of its own military forces. Such matters are the sovereign prerogatives of said country alone. We therefore wish to put forth the following proposal for consideration, if the Speaker will allow it: My Lord von Schwyz, You and I have plenty of experience in large assemblies, in our own Senate and your own Tagsatzung, to know the likely eventual outcome of the vote for these competing proposals. I have seen it once already in this assembly and I would much prefer not to have it repeated. As a compromise, I suggest the following: Strike “ or said country declaring and waging war” from Clause 1 from the proposal since it would interfere with Lord Gewisse’s proposal which allows for papal considerations. Amend the 3rd Clause to nominate Lord Archon Evander as leader of this military expedition against the Mongols. The 2nd clause is already being enacted willingly and voluntarily by almost every member of the Diet and can remain and as for the 3rd clause, only the Lord Archon has stepped forward to lead the combined forces in battle so his nomination is both reasonable and sensible. You can further amend it to allow for a change in leadership if the Diet desires it. In return, I would ask Lord Evander if he would be willing to drop his proposal in favor of yours to ensure unity amongst all members of the Diet to combat this Mongol threat that is now no longer a rumor or some far off problem among barbarians beyond our borders but resides within the very confines of Christendom. Are both Lord von Schwyz and Lord Evander amenable to these suggestions?
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Post by Landvogt Werner von Schwyz on Jun 6, 2023 15:06:30 GMT
You hide behind papers and lawyer's dodge, von Schwyz. While thousands bled and fought to save a Christian realm under siege, you stayed your hand whilst all your neighbors marched abroad in unison. A unity not seen since the Reman Empire. Even now the realm you represent seeks to profit as warriors march again to drive the Mongol savages from the shores of Christendom. Is there not a single canton or member of the Tagsatzung who would lift a sword and shield in combat against massacring raiders who pray to foreign, pagan gods? Yes, I say, that a measure mandating the support of ALL Christian realms in mutual defense against the Khannic hordes, especially for the likes of you who count pennies under the cloak of safety provided by the legions of others. You are lucky that Savior Jesus Christ commands us to forgive so easily, lest I be disgusted by such a lack of bravery. This is precisely what we feared. Our concerns have been brushed off by verbal reassurances by some of the other delegates here that the Diet is not actually dictating through a majority vote what other countries should be doing with their soldiers and their coin over their own objections, and that the motion to contribute to the joint expedition against the Mongols is voluntary. But alas here we are, being told straight to our face that yes indeed, the motion currently under consideration to fight the Mongols mandates the support of all the countries represented here, with no guarantee that the delegates here will not simply declare that a majority in favour will be sufficient to make this the law of the Diet and to give them the moral standing to compel any who dissent into compliance one way or another, even though what the motion is asking for is the sole prerogative of each respective sovereign country in question. I state again, the Tagsatzung does not necessarily object to this expedition, and we have already declared our willingness to contribute to the defence of Christendom against the Mongols as a voluntary effort, so long as it is clear that the Diet is not seeking to establish through precedent its standing to, on matters that fall under a country's or countries' sovereign prerogatives, make rulings about them by the will of a majority over their objections.
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Post by Landvogt Werner von Schwyz on Jun 6, 2023 15:41:44 GMT
My Lord von Schwyz, You and I have plenty of experience in large assemblies, in our own Senate and your own Tagsatzung, to know the likely eventual outcome of the vote for these competing proposals. I have seen it once already in this assembly and I would much prefer not to have it repeated. As a compromise, I suggest the following: Strike “ or said country declaring and waging war” from Clause 1 from the proposal since it would interfere with Lord Gewisse’s proposal which allows for papal considerations. Amend the 3rd Clause to nominate Lord Archon Evander as leader of this military expedition against the Mongols. The 2nd clause is already being enacted willingly and voluntarily by almost every member of the Diet and can remain and as for the 3rd clause, only the Lord Archon has stepped forward to lead the combined forces in battle so his nomination is both reasonable and sensible. You can further amend it to allow for a change in leadership if the Diet desires it. In return, I would ask Lord Evander if he would be willing to drop his proposal in favor of yours to ensure unity amongst all members of the Diet to combat this Mongol threat that is now no longer a rumor or some far off problem among barbarians beyond our borders but resides within the very confines of Christendom. Are both Lord von Schwyz and Lord Evander amenable to these suggestions? I would not so readily strike 'or said country declaring and waging war' from clause 1, but the Tagsatzung would be satisfied with perhaps adding to our proposal an exception to the veto in that on the specific matter of establishing peace between countries as provided for in the (proposed) law 'On the Imperial Diet and Peace:', the veto may be overridden by the same margins as the peace treaty itself as outlined in proposal from Gewisse. That said, we wish to have Elyria's voice taken into account, and I would propose amending Gewisse's proposal to require a threshold of 67% (8 out of 11 as it stands) on a peace treaty, which in the framework of our proposal could override a veto on matters of war and peace. This is the same figure proposed by the delegate from Elyria to override a veto and we hope that this will be sufficient to have Elyria's consent on the matter, but while we remain advocates of an unlimited veto on the other matters covered, we will permit this exception on bringing hostilities to an end. If it is truly the judgement of His Holiness and of an overwhelming majority of the countries represented here that peace ought to be found, there should be no issue clearing this threshold. We have no issue with amending Clause 3 to explicitly place the Lord-Archon in command if there is already a consensus amongst the delegates here, including the Lord-Archon himself, for approving his candidacy. I also wish to state additionally that should our concerns be answered through the successful passage of our proposal, I would request an extension of discussion on the joint expedition against the Mongols so as to allow us to elaborate on what Helvetia can provide to the military expedition. I did not mean through my words to give the impression that the Tagsatzung was refusing to contribute entirely no matter what, we merely saw the need to preserve our sovereignty from overreach by the Diet just as much as the need to take collective action again the Mongol threat.
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Post by Consul Allectus de Gallia on Jun 6, 2023 16:35:33 GMT
My Lord Schwyz,
The discussion on how to deal with the Mongol horde has already been discussed at length and ultimately decided on.
If you wish to contribute forces or funds to the expedition, you are free to state your intention to do so at any time.
The time for action is now.
Your proposals have until the next day (24IRL) to be amended and/or seconded so they can be included in the final voting bloc.
After the allotted time, the vote will begin.
I motion to end the Diet session once the voting has concluded.
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Post by Alfred Von Gewisse on Jun 6, 2023 17:06:47 GMT
My Lord von Schwyz, You and I have plenty of experience in large assemblies, in our own Senate and your own Tagsatzung, to know the likely eventual outcome of the vote for these competing proposals. I have seen it once already in this assembly and I would much prefer not to have it repeated. As a compromise, I suggest the following: Strike “ or said country declaring and waging war” from Clause 1 from the proposal since it would interfere with Lord Gewisse’s proposal which allows for papal considerations. Amend the 3rd Clause to nominate Lord Archon Evander as leader of this military expedition against the Mongols. The 2nd clause is already being enacted willingly and voluntarily by almost every member of the Diet and can remain and as for the 3rd clause, only the Lord Archon has stepped forward to lead the combined forces in battle so his nomination is both reasonable and sensible. You can further amend it to allow for a change in leadership if the Diet desires it. In return, I would ask Lord Evander if he would be willing to drop his proposal in favor of yours to ensure unity amongst all members of the Diet to combat this Mongol threat that is now no longer a rumor or some far off problem among barbarians beyond our borders but resides within the very confines of Christendom. Are both Lord von Schwyz and Lord Evander amenable to these suggestions? I would not so readily strike 'or said country declaring and waging war' from clause 1, but the Tagsatzung would be satisfied with perhaps adding to our proposal an exception to the veto in that on the specific matter of establishing peace between countries as provided for in the (proposed) law 'On the Imperial Diet and Peace:', the veto may be overridden by the same margins as the peace treaty itself as outlined in proposal from Gewisse. That said, we wish to have Elyria's voice taken into account, and I would propose amending Gewisse's proposal to require a threshold of 67% (8 out of 11 as it stands) on a peace treaty, which in the framework of our proposal could override a veto on matters of war and peace. This is the same figure proposed by the delegate from Elyria to override a veto and we hope that this will be sufficient to have Elyria's consent on the matter, but while we remain advocates of an unlimited veto on the other matters covered, we will permit this exception on bringing hostilities to an end. If it is truly the judgement of His Holiness and of an overwhelming majority of the countries represented here that peace ought to be found, there should be no issue clearing this threshold. We have no issue with amending Clause 3 to explicitly place the Lord-Archon in command if there is already a consensus amongst the delegates here, including the Lord-Archon himself, for approving his candidacy. I also wish to state additionally that should our concerns be answered through the successful passage of our proposal, I would request an extension of discussion on the joint expedition against the Mongols so as to allow us to elaborate on what Helvetia can provide to the military expedition. I did not mean through my words to give the impression that the Tagsatzung was refusing to contribute entirely no matter what, we merely saw the need to preserve our sovereignty from overreach by the Diet just as much as the need to take collective action again the Mongol threat. I second your request to extend the Diet post-vote. There is much that hinges in the results of the voting, such as to allow a specific discussion on the war effort. I’d rather avoid the issues we had with messengers running to and fro of last year.
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Post by Landvogt Werner von Schwyz on Jun 6, 2023 17:37:50 GMT
Very well. We amend our proposal as follows for consideration: Separately, I wish to inform those whom it may concern that the Tagsatzung has tallied the military strength of our country and that Helvetia would be prepared to contribute the following to the joint expedition against the Mongols: 100 heavy cavalry
107 light cavalry
230 heavy infantry 230 light infantry
115 pikemen We would also in addition be willing to contribute some amount of coin to purchase a cavalry mercenary regiment. There are not the funds in our treasury to afford the Northern Brotherhood, but we would be willing to contribute enough in coin for half the cost if the other half can be covered by the contribution of another country, or group of countries. All these potential contributions, of course, are subject to our concerns about our own sovereignty vis-a-vis the Diet being satisfied. If the Tagsatzung senses that the Diet is seeking to use this crisis to pass laws and establish precedents that erode our sovereign rights, all our resources must instead be devoted to the defence of our sovereignty against, sadly, both our fellow Christians and the Mongols alike.
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Post by Consul Allectus de Gallia on Jun 6, 2023 18:34:51 GMT
I don’t feel there is much more to discuss with regards to the campaign however we can continue passed the voting stage in case key pieces of legislation fail to pass.
I highly encourage Lord von Schwyz to propose a resolution that can be seconded or amend it to not run counter to any other resolutions that are passed by the Diet.
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Post by Lord-Archon Trajan Evander on Jun 6, 2023 19:15:05 GMT
As the motion on the Diet's powers and authority to resolve conflicts and wars between realms has received two seconds (including our own) and no objections voiced thus far, I would like to, with the permission of the Speaker, make an amendment on the current proposal for the realms to furnish men or coin to combat the Mongol threat. The Tagsatzung does not necessarily object to such a joint effort by the various countries of Christendom being coordinated in the halls of this assembly, nor does it necessarily wish this endeavour to fail. Instead, our ire is drawn specifically at the prospect that the Diet would pass a theoretically-enforceable resolution on this matter through the rule of majority approval alone, one that would yet make participation in this expedition compulsory amongst every single land represented in the Diet, with fixed amounts of soldiers or coin required of each country, even if a minority of countries were to object to the use of its own coin or men in this way. We do not deny the reality of the Mongol threat, but at the same time we are willing to lend neither legitimacy nor precedent to the Diet legislating on matters of a country's spending of its own coin, or the raising and deployment of its own military forces. Such matters are the sovereign prerogatives of said country alone. We therefore wish to put forth the following proposal for consideration, if the Speaker will allow it: My Lord von Schwyz, You and I have plenty of experience in large assemblies, in our own Senate and your own Tagsatzung, to know the likely eventual outcome of the vote for these competing proposals. I have seen it once already in this assembly and I would much prefer not to have it repeated. As a compromise, I suggest the following: Strike “ or said country declaring and waging war” from Clause 1 from the proposal since it would interfere with Lord Gewisse’s proposal which allows for papal considerations. Amend the 3rd Clause to nominate Lord Archon Evander as leader of this military expedition against the Mongols. The 2nd clause is already being enacted willingly and voluntarily by almost every member of the Diet and can remain and as for the 3rd clause, only the Lord Archon has stepped forward to lead the combined forces in battle so his nomination is both reasonable and sensible. You can further amend it to allow for a change in leadership if the Diet desires it. In return, I would ask Lord Evander if he would be willing to drop his proposal in favor of yours to ensure unity amongst all members of the Diet to combat this Mongol threat that is now no longer a rumor or some far off problem among barbarians beyond our borders but resides within the very confines of Christendom. Are both Lord von Schwyz and Lord Evander amenable to these suggestions? Lord-Archon Trajan Evander flicks his wrist, with a slight wince of pain, and scoffs.So be it. I'll surrender my proposal if it means we have more willing soldiers in the campaign this year.
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