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Post by Consul Allectus de Gallia on Feb 20, 2023 17:33:29 GMT
Allectus motions to speak and once given permission to do so rises to address the Diet. His advisor provides him with some last minute words of advice before he starts.
Good Members of the Diet,
It seems to me that this is a clear cut case of two sides negotiating in bad faith and being unwilling to find a mutually beneficial compromise to ensure peace and prosperity for their respective realms. It is immediately obvious to me that this is the work of the devil who has manipulated the hearts of both these fine Christian lords and enticed them with greed and malevolent thoughts towards one another.
However, regardless of the words exchanged between them there is a clear and present aggressor in this manner in the Old Kingdom. My own children are known to get into my study and draw on the maps of the world with no thought to borders or access to resources. The lords of Eriburn and the Old Kingdom did so in a similar manner when they pressed their own outrageous demands on one another. With that being said, the Holy Kingdom of Eriburn expanded their realm into lands both uninhabited and unrecognized by others on any map known to the realm of men or God. The Old Kingdom, rather than continue their use of diplomacy and comporting themselves as befit their station and the level of respect due to fellow Christians, chose to impose their will on the lands belonging to another Christian kingdom; raiding, pillaging and committing all manner of ungodly behaviors.
It is my opinion that the Old Kingdom must pay an indemnity to the Kingdom of Eriburn for their aggressive acts and to compensate for the loss of life and property within that realm. Furthermore, I would like to see the two kingdoms agree to a 10 year truce between both nations before the eyes of this Diet, God and all fellow Christian lords and ladies.
Lastly, their dispute over land seems like a matter that can and should be dealt bilaterally and not through the Diet with over 18 different opinions and suggestions. Both men have espoused their Christian values and morals, now is the time for them to show it with one another.
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Post by Thravok I on Feb 20, 2023 17:40:14 GMT
fellow lords, I am sure that you are realizing who cunning and greedy Marq Luq can be. He sent this message: Ask yourselves how would you act if another leader treat your kingdom as a “petty fief”. How would you act if he claims lands that are already under your control? How would you act after seeing that map where another kingdom cut off your territory? Then, he is daring enough to claim in this chamber that every land at the South of the mountain pass is “historically and culturally Eriburnian”. For sure, he will soon claim that the Emperor´s throne is historically and culturally Eriburnian. Your expansion was only to block my sea access, to constrain my kingdom and to provoke a war that you will win thanks to your higher numbers of agricultural lands. I claim these borders to be preserve. These borders let both kingdom to access the sea, let both kingdoms access to fishing resources and a good amount of land.
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Post by Thravok I on Feb 20, 2023 17:50:03 GMT
Allectus motions to speak and once given permission to do so rises to address the Diet. His advisor provides him with some last minute words of advice before he starts.Good Members of the Diet, It seems to me that this is a clear cut case of two sides negotiating in bad faith and being unwilling to find a mutually beneficial compromise to ensure peace and prosperity for their respective realms. It is immediately obvious to me that this is the work of the devil who has manipulated the hearts of both these fine Christian lords and enticed them with greed and malevolent thoughts towards one another. However, regardless of the words exchanged between them there is a clear and present aggressor in this manner in the Old Kingdom. My own children are known to get into my study and draw on the maps of the world with no thought to borders or access to resources. The lords of Eriburn and the Old Kingdom did so in a similar manner when they pressed their own outrageous demands on one another. With that being said, the Holy Kingdom of Eriburn expanded their realm into lands both uninhabited and unrecognized by others on any map known to the realm of men or God. The Old Kingdom, rather than continue their use of diplomacy and comporting themselves as befit their station and the level of respect due to fellow Christians, chose to impose their will on the lands belonging to another Christian kingdom; raiding, pillaging and committing all manner of ungodly behaviors. It is my opinion that the Old Kingdom must pay an indemnity to the Kingdom of Eriburn for their aggressive acts and to compensate for the loss of life and property within that realm. Furthermore, I would like to see the two kingdoms agree to a 10 year truce between both nations before the eyes of this Diet, God and all fellow Christian lords and ladies. Lastly, their dispute over land seems like a matter that can and should be dealt bilaterally and not through the Diet with over 18 different opinions and suggestions. Both men have espoused their Christian values and morals, now is the time for them to show it with one another. My good Consul, Here is the proof that I tried the diplomacy. take a look to his last dispatch. He threat directly my kingdom saying that the will be under his rule one day and even say that I have " spurn his offer for a peacefully expansion" Maybe there is many different cultures in this vast lands..But, I thought that it is clear for every one that this word are an insult, a threath and a war declaration. Of course the ruler of Eriburn is cunning, and he decided to gain even more power before strike with his deadly blow. And now, he act as a victim in front of us...
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Post by Alfred Von Gewisse on Feb 20, 2023 17:50:23 GMT
Marq,
The maps drawn are quite clear of your claims, including the lands of Lord Thravok has already inhabited for some time. Were one of my neighbors so inclined to impress upon me a set of claims similar, I may have been tempted to act in such an unchristian manner. Again, I state that the actions of raids by Lord Thravok were wrong, but this seems to be a case of multiple wrongs with differing layers of severity.
I have said my peace - I look forward to our new speaker providing a compromise. Should both parties not agree to such a compromise, I expect you will continue to fight it out on the field of battle. I have lands to return to, and neighbors to peacefully trade with. I do not want to be stuck here all year, else I shall motion the Diet only convene once per decade.
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Post by Marq Luq d'Jean on Feb 20, 2023 18:05:49 GMT
The Crown Prince looks rather perplexed, "It seems to be continuously ignored that the claims to traditional lands currently held by the Old Kingdom were dropped, out of a sign of good faith and a want towards compromise with the Old Kingdom. But again, it was not Eriburn who ended the conversation, said things were now in God's hands and then proceeded to invade my Kingdom.
"I do not deny that the initial offer proposed was a very aggressive one, because as anyone here who has ever conducted trade would know, your opening offer should never be the one you'll actually settle for...something that I'm not seeing from the Old King himself today. I was willing to bend and be flexible with the conversation, but again it was not I who ended it and invoked the name of the Almighty for doing so."
The Crown Prince turns to face Thravok
"Good ser, surely you're not going to say that my message to you, saying I thought that the lands would be mine "one day" was a declaration of war? You want to spurn me for speaking before this body about our ongoing conflict, which you are losing, yet it was yourself who brought the issue immediately before the Imperial Diet.
"I am willing to engage diplomatically here, in front of everyone, because if we do not I do not know what tale you will tell next time. I do not know whose lands you will invade if they continue to reject your demands that your lands border their own."
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Post by Alfred Von Gewisse on Feb 20, 2023 18:15:00 GMT
"Quite a strange system of negotiation you lot have in the South. Among the far Peninsula I have been a part of two separate negotiations where an offer was presented and accepted with little need to go back and forth. The offer was equitable, terms fully defined and accepted."
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Post by Thravok I on Feb 20, 2023 18:44:16 GMT
The Crown Prince looks rather perplexed, "It seems to be continuously ignored that the claims to traditional lands currently held by the Old Kingdom were dropped, out of a sign of good faith and a want towards compromise with the Old Kingdom. But again, it was not Eriburn who ended the conversation, said things were now in God's hands and then proceeded to invade my Kingdom. "I do not deny that the initial offer proposed was a very aggressive one, because as anyone here who has ever conducted trade would know, your opening offer should never be the one you'll actually settle for...something that I'm not seeing from the Old King himself today. I was willing to bend and be flexible with the conversation, but again it was not I who ended it and invoked the name of the Almighty for doing so." The Crown Prince turns to face Thravok"Good ser, surely you're not going to say that my message to you, saying I thought that the lands would be mine "one day" was a declaration of war? You want to spurn me for speaking before this body about our ongoing conflict, which you are losing, yet it was yourself who brought the issue immediately before the Imperial Diet. "I am willing to engage diplomatically here, in front of everyone, because if we do not I do not know what tale you will tell next time. I do not know whose lands you will invade if they continue to reject your demands that your lands border their own." you talk about trade and opening offers. do I have to remember you that we are talking about lands belonging to their realms? lands that God provided us to be their rulers? I offer to get to the old borders as I have just shown. They are enough room for us, enough resources and access to the sea. Do you accept? show now to us that you have real interest in the welfare of your people. Of course I am willing to pay triplex any looted gold my men may have carry.
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Post by Duke Gary da Carlsen on Feb 20, 2023 18:48:30 GMT
"Do you have an actual figure or estimate for what your men had looted from the old kingdom?"
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Post by Duke Gary da Carlsen on Feb 20, 2023 18:51:08 GMT
"Do you have an actual figure or estimate for what your men had looted from the old kingdom?" Sorry, I meant the Kingdom of Eriburn.
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Post by Thravok I on Feb 20, 2023 19:09:22 GMT
"Do you have an actual figure or estimate for what your men had looted from the old kingdom?" the total amounted to 27 florins. no more no less. As I said my army was looking for the enemy not for plundering. But Eriburn love to play drama if he can obtain something.
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Post by Marq Luq d'Jean on Feb 20, 2023 19:21:55 GMT
The Crown Prince looks rather perplexed, "It seems to be continuously ignored that the claims to traditional lands currently held by the Old Kingdom were dropped, out of a sign of good faith and a want towards compromise with the Old Kingdom. But again, it was not Eriburn who ended the conversation, said things were now in God's hands and then proceeded to invade my Kingdom. "I do not deny that the initial offer proposed was a very aggressive one, because as anyone here who has ever conducted trade would know, your opening offer should never be the one you'll actually settle for...something that I'm not seeing from the Old King himself today. I was willing to bend and be flexible with the conversation, but again it was not I who ended it and invoked the name of the Almighty for doing so." The Crown Prince turns to face Thravok"Good ser, surely you're not going to say that my message to you, saying I thought that the lands would be mine "one day" was a declaration of war? You want to spurn me for speaking before this body about our ongoing conflict, which you are losing, yet it was yourself who brought the issue immediately before the Imperial Diet. "I am willing to engage diplomatically here, in front of everyone, because if we do not I do not know what tale you will tell next time. I do not know whose lands you will invade if they continue to reject your demands that your lands border their own." you talk about trade and opening offers. do I have to remember you that we are talking about lands belonging to their realms? lands that God provided us to be their rulers? I offer to get to the old borders as I have just shown. They are enough room for us, enough resources and access to the sea. Do you accept? show now to us that you have real interest in the welfare of your people. Of course I am willing to pay triplex any looted gold my men may have carry. "Lord Thravok, surely you are not implying that as a result of beating back your invasion force that my recompense is losing land that is mine? Wasn't that the whole purpose, from your earlier words, of why you were forced to invade me to begin with? Because I claimed land that was yours? If rumors around the realm are truthful, I would be well within my rights to demand great amounts of soil, gold and suffering from you, something I have as of yet not done. Because I do not want lasting enmity between our peoples, because I am at my core a peaceful man. "So what I will offer is this. The borders are set along the following demarcation line, which will give you your access to the sea. You will also agree to pay my nation the amount of 3 times the amount you raided from my land, for a period of 5 years, which will be the tribute payment for continued peace between our nations for the same amount of time.
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Post by Thravok I on Feb 20, 2023 19:39:47 GMT
"Lord Thravok, surely you are not implying that as a result of beating back your invasion force that my recompense is losing land that is mine? Wasn't that the whole purpose, from your earlier words, of why you were forced to invade me to begin with? Because I claimed land that was yours? If rumors around the realm are truthful, I would be well within my rights to demand great amounts of soil, gold and suffering from you, something I have as of yet not done. Because I do not want lasting enmity between our peoples, because I am at my core a peaceful man. "So what I will offer is this. The borders are set along the following demarcation line, which will give you your access to the sea. You will also agree to pay my nation the amount of 3 times the amount you raided from my land, for a period of 5 years, which will be the tribute payment for continued peace between our nations for the same amount of time. You must thing that every member of the Diet is blind. You pretend to keep all your conquers, to constrain my kingdom and keep every fishing source. Also you want me to pay you, during 5 years, in order to get and army and complete your initial plan and steal my lands. My Capital is too close to you and you are only getting time to attack. You are not seeking Peace you are here to obtain benefits. This must be the border and you know is fair. ANs I am willing to pay during 5 years what my army plundered if we keep the borders like that.
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Post by Thravok I on Feb 20, 2023 19:43:11 GMT
"Lord Thravok, surely you are not implying that as a result of beating back your invasion force that my recompense is losing land that is mine? Wasn't that the whole purpose, from your earlier words, of why you were forced to invade me to begin with? Because I claimed land that was yours? If rumors around the realm are truthful, I would be well within my rights to demand great amounts of soil, gold and suffering from you, something I have as of yet not done. Because I do not want lasting enmity between our peoples, because I am at my core a peaceful man. "So what I will offer is this. The borders are set along the following demarcation line, which will give you your access to the sea. You will also agree to pay my nation the amount of 3 times the amount you raided from my land, for a period of 5 years, which will be the tribute payment for continued peace between our nations for the same amount of time. You must thing that every member of the Diet is blind. You pretend to keep all your conquers, to constrain my kingdom and keep every fishing source. Also you want me to pay you, during 5 years, in order to get and army and complete your initial plan and steal my lands. My Capital is too close to you and you are only getting time to attack. You are not seeking Peace you are here to obtain benefits. This must be the border and you know is fair. ANs I am willing to pay during 5 years what my army plundered if we keep the borders like that. If the Speaker give permission, maybe we should vote which option will bring peace to our realms.
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Post by Alfred Von Gewisse on Feb 20, 2023 19:50:03 GMT
King Alfred Von Gewisse let out a long, audible sigh: "King Thravok, the reality on the ground dictates one must compromise. While we can all recognize your starting position, constantly countering with the same position over and over will get us nowhere. And all evidence points to your forces ravaging the lands and then getting swiftly defeated by the Marq. In the spirit of compromise, may I suggest the river being the dividing line between your two Kingdoms? It is, nearly literally, the middle ground between your starting positions. Map - imgur.com/F1JpYycRed lines being the original positions claimed. Blue line the suggested claims. A river between the two, what more natural barrier could there be besides oceans and mountains?
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Post by Lord-Archon Trajan Evander on Feb 20, 2023 19:59:13 GMT
I believe both Lords in the dispute have made their positions clear. While this began as a border dispute that escalated into war, we cannot forget the events that have taken place. God has chosen a victor and routed the forces of the Old Kingdom as well as the ones who initiated conflict and sought no true resolution, even in these very halls. What could not be achieved on the field of battle cannot be achieved by the stroke of a pen in the Imperial Diet. I present the Imperial Diet with the following proposal: 1. The recognized borders for immediate cessation of hostilities between the Holy Kingdom of Eriburn and the Old Kingdom of Thorgerheim. Map: imgur.com/w2P2c5d2. The Old Kingdom of Thorgerheim shall pay reparations for their undeclared war and raiding of the Holy Kingdom of Eriburn 60 florins over two years (30 florins per turn, for two turns). 3. A mandatory truce, bound by the laws of God and Man, maintained between the Holy Kingdom of Eriburn and the Old Kingdom of Thorgerheim for the span of 5 years (5 turns). Commence the traditional voting period (36 IRL hours) or else decided upon by His Holiness. I pray in the future your two realms can settle disputes outside of the Imperial Diet.
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